Topic: I.D. help please, Is this frosted Greek key sugar by Molineaux Webb & Co.?

[nick.a]

Hi,
This frosted, Greek Key decorated sugar bowl was advertised as M&W and has many of the right attributes. Looking at Neil's site though it doesn't match on stem or rim shape as far as I can tell, and I haven't found anthing similar anywhere else. Hoping that you guys can point me in the right direction, any information gratefully received.
Best Regards
Nick

[Paul S.]

Hi Nick  -  assume the M & W sugar that you're referring to is Rd. 186463 from 1st May 1865  -  which has a baluster stem and scalloped foot rim.......    neither of which appear on yours ......  assuming I'm on the right track.
I've been through the Board of Trade pix for the period 1864 to 1870, when the greek key was especially popular, but can't find anything that matches all of the design features of your sugar.....   so a bit lost for now.
Of course Fred - who knows vastly more about such things - may well have the answer.

Presumably the greek key wasn't the province of M & W alone, although I agree with you that their name might be the first that comes to mind.

Edited to add..........    how about going back to the seller and asking for some sort of confirmation of attribution  - in the way of an Rd. No.  -  perhaps??

[nick.a]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the reply and for checking the Board of Trade pics. That was the sugar I meant. The modelling of the pattern seems right (except the direction of the Greek key, but I read on a previous GMB topic that this happened on some M&W pieces ( see plate & dish RD# 182483 from 1864 )) but it differs  in so many other ways. I have emailed Neil regarding an oval M&W dish and said I'd be posting this here so hopefully either him or Fred has some ideas.
Kind Regards
Nick

[neilh]

Hi Nick,

The sugar certainly looks in the house style but without a lozenge mark there can be no definite proof. As Paul says it doesn't quite match the registration from 1865. Of course many designs were unregistered but looking through the pressed glass catalogue, which would cover the likely period this was designed, there is no sign of it either.

I guess it sits on the unproven list for now.

[agincourt17]

Hi Nick,

My opinion is much the same as that from Paul and Neil.

Plagiarism of design features among the Victorian glass houses seems to have been rife, and agents, wholesalers and retailers of glassware certainly commissioned glass manufacturers to produce large quantities of glassware to their own specific design briefs, though no firm evidence has survived.

I have a substantial collection of reference photos of Victorian press-moulded or mould- blown glass items whose attribution is either unknown, unfounded, dubious or erroneous. On auction sites, many items with a Greek key design are attributed to ‘Molineaux Webb’, marbled or slag glass is usually ‘Davidson’ or ‘Sowerby’, and opalescent glass tends to be ‘Davidson’ or ‘Pearline’.

I think the generic term much beloved by auction houses and antique dealers is ‘in the style of…’, a coverall for much ignorance without admission of liablility, but without definitive indicators such as design registry lozenges/numbers or catalogue illustrations of unregistered designs for direct comparison then a positive attribution is difficult or impossible, and likely to remain so in most cases.

Fred.

[Paul S.]

I can't recall Fred, if I've posted the Kew drawing for 186463  -  the M & W greek key sugar, previously on the Board  -  if you know that I haven't, then I can do so.           Give me a shout if it appears that I've not.

[agincourt17]

I can't find a posting for the design representation of RD 186463 on the GMB, Paul, and I don't have in in my reference collection, so I would love to see it, please.

Fred.

[nick.a]

Thank you Fred,Paul and Neil,
I'll file this in the I.D. unknown pile. No blame due to the seller given the similarities of design.
Regards
Nick

[Paul S.]

In view of the obvious connection between them, I've attached images of both 186462 and 186463, both of which were Registered to Molineux, Webb & Co., Manchester, by the British Board of Trade on 1st May 1865.          I think the blue looks good in the original drawings - nice touch of artistic licence.
In the pix you can see clearly the baluster shaped stem and scalloped foot rim which are lacking on nick's sugar.

Just noticed a small but significant typo in Ray Slack's book  -  page 151  -  where the first of these two Registrations is shown in error as 185462.        This is unusual for his book, which has a very low incidence of such errors.

Apologies for the usual loss of some sharpness of these watermarked images.

[agincourt17]

Thank you, Paul.

Fred.